I volunteered in the Daughter's Kindergaten class for the first time two weeks ago. The procedure is that the child introduces her mom or dad to the class and the class then greet the parent who is going to help out. I was so set on being Ms JaCal and got the hick ups when I realized I was to be introduced as Mrs Smith (if that would have been my last name). I almost turned around wondering what other grown-up was in the classroom...
It's not that I don't like the more formal way and the way it gives respect - especially in school - but I have a hard time getting used to it. I'm starting to realize that maybe we should have taught the Daughter to call her bestfriend's mom Ms Emily and not just plain Emily... I don't want her to be known as the rude Swede down the street...
But on the other hand it really feels easier to use "Mrs" or "Mr" than the Swedish eqvivalcence... I wonder what people would think if I would come back to Sweden and start calling people Herr Andersson and Fru Svensson...
14 comments:
Interesting to read your blog! My husband is "utlandssvensk" and has lived in both, but with your daughter in the picture, it's a different set of experiences than I hear about from him, whether as a child in European clothes in an American elementary school (often crying in the morning, though he says he got very good at aiming his clogs at his tormentors!).
Re. addressing your parents' friends: my 10-year-old son and his friends generally follow the formula "Hello Johnny's dad" or "Thank you, Mrs Johnny's mom" (if they're being polite!). One of my husband's friends has his kids call us all Mr./M(r)s. Whatever, but that's unusual. My son generally calls our friends by their first names, and none of them seems to mind.
-- Jasmin in L.A.
This is a very regional thing. In the South, children as a rule must call adults Ma'am and Sir. When using names, polite children should say in my case "Miss Allyson" regardless of age or marital status. Even adults might refer to older people in this way. It's just custom and what's expected.
California is infinitely less formal (thankfully) and I hardly recall EVER being asked by a parent to call them Mr or Mrs. (except if we were at school). I never used a teacher's first name until college. The only exception being preschools with Miss X.
I think parents are better off teaching their kids to say "please" and "thank you" than insisting on titles. But that's the Californian in me. :-)
Jasmin - how interesting - thanks for sharing! Once dad in my the Daughter's Kindergarten class is very set on everybody calling him "Mister David" and corrects the kids all the time - he is making me a little nervous - haha. When one of the kids in class asked if I was "J's mom" - I said yes, auhm... well, yes I'm "Mrs Smith" - feeling kind of strange. Good to know it's more relaxed here in California. ;-)
Ally - well, I really do like the more formal way - I think a certain feeling of respect follows. It's just when I realized I'm one of those Mrs-grow-ups myself when things get confusing.. ;-) It's true - the Daughter called all her preschool teachers by Miss X! On our PT conference last week the two teachers were calling each other by first name and it took us half the meeting before we realized who they were talking about - we too are so set on MrsX and MrsY haha. Please and thank you are hard enough and when you add two (or three in your case) languages where the "kan jag be och få" and "please" are in different parts of the sentence - it's complicated enough to get them to remember.
Do you think children in Sweden have less respect for their teachers because they call them by their first names? I don't know personally that there is a difference but it's interesting to think about.
My mom (a career 1st grade teacher) observed some schools when she came to see us. She was intrigued by many differences but wondered allowed about the title thing. She said she doesn't think it would matter.
Ally - you know, having no background in education at all, so I can only go by my very own personal gut feeling ;-) , I think that maybe having a more formal way to call you teacher might contribute to respect. In itself I don't think the solution to schools in problem - but I think teachers in general should be met with way much more respect than they are. And by respect I don't mean as in "sole authority" - but acknowledging that the teacher is in charge and is leading the way. But then, it would never work in Sweden, there is no good word. "Fröken X" or "Magister Y" just sounds silly... sounds like a movie from the 60s ;-)
It sure would be interesting to hear your mother's view, must have been fun to compare! My real hands on is from the 70s... and things might have changed. A bit. Maybe. ;-)
I have friends that teach both here and there and frankly it's my observation that lack of respect for the teacher comes from the home. If the parents don't stress the need to understanding the role and place for the teacher, then the kids don't fall in line.
When I was younger, everyone treated teachers like gods. Now they're human and parents try to intimidate them into to giving students better grades, they talk back in a disrespectful way, I've even observe parents telling students it's ok to lie to the teacher.
I know teachers aren't perfect, geez I used to be one, my mom is one, and so is my MIL. :-) They're very human indeed. But I think respect should be commanded, not demanded.
BTW, anyone who has ever had the pleasure of knowing your daughter would agree with me that she'll never be known as the "rude Swede down the street".
Ally - yep - everything starts at home for sure - which must be so hopeless for so many teachers when they are in the situation that they don't have support of the parents - and that sure is a world wide phenomena.
I wish I was fluent in Spanish or French or any other language with a more formal "form" (vouz) - and how that effect how you speak to each other.
The Mr and Mrs thing is hard to get around, especially when volunteering in the schools. I wanted to be called Annika, but it ended up being Mrs B,and that is OK now. It took me some years to accept that, but now I think it is fine. It is the rule here, and I don't see why I should break that rule. But as far as karolina's friends go none of them call me Mrs B. I am simply Annika to them. when I was working in a Montessori school in Arlington in the mid-90's I was going by Ms. Annika, sounded WEIRD, but I got used to that, too.
Jadu detta med titalar är något jag fortfarande inte vant mig vid! Själv hoppar jag till varje gång någon kallar mig Dr B. För det är liksom inte JAG! Jag vet att det är min titel, men jag känner mig definitivt inte som doktor so and so....
Jag tycker faktistk att deta med titlar är väldigt gammeldags och jag gillar det inte alls. Det säger inget om personen alls, men kan istället göra att andra personer runtomkring får en massa fördomar om personen ifråga. Inte alltid negativa sådana såklart, men ändå. Det känns så onödigt. Varför måste man vara en titel när det viktiga är hur man är som människa, som person??
Kanske är det väldigt svenkt att tänka så?
Jag känner även att en titel också distanserar, dvs jag känner mig som om en person "tar lite avstånd" från mig ifall de kallar mig vid titel + efternamn. Det känns så opersonligt. Och om någon i min närhet (som t ex sådana jag träffar varje dag) skulle kalla mig för titel + efternamn istället för mitt förnamn skulle jag nog nästan känna det som något negativt. Även om jag vet att det inte är så här.
Kram!
I don't think the respect is in the title either. In the same way, school uniforms in the UK don't mean that they don't have problems or that their school fare better in international comparisons. Small children in Sweden do call their teacher "Fröken" though (also the males teachers sometimes") but not with the first name or surname afterwards. Just "fröken". But when they are 10, 11 or 12 they usually call them exclusively by their first name.
Annika - I guess you gets used to it - I just have to remember to tell them the right name! ;-)
Saltistjejen - tja, det är nog svenskt på sätt och vis. Jag är inte för titlar som så - det känns konstigt och ovant - och ger man sig in på titlar som "Dr" osv - då är det ju en helt annan diskussion. Hajjar fortfarande till när de glatt kallar mig Mrs X på Safeway när de kollar kvittot vad jag heter i efternamn... Däremot tycker jag inte att kalla sin fröken för "Miss Laurie" snarare än bara "Laurie" nödvändigtvis distanserar mer - det beror nog på hur "Laurie" är som person.
Anna - well, maybe I have been misunderstood what I meant above - I really don't think adding a title would solve school problems, they are way more profound than that, both here (where they use the title) and in Sweden (where they don't). I still like that as I teach my children to have respect, follow rules, listen to the teacher - also can follow with using a tiny more formal way of addressing someone than just by the first name. It doesn't start with the title - but it adds on top. Hopefully my kids would behave the say way regardless of using title or not. Interesting how they might call a male teacher "fröken"!! How fun - and maybe more natural - "magister" really is a very old word - wheras "fröken" works way wider. I just realized that my kids hardly doesn't know either of these words since they never had a "fröken". ;-)
Interesting discussion nevertheless - thanks all for your comments!
Tone says everything.
If the child is talking to an adult with kindness, first names are fine (or whatever the adult prefers to be called is fine).
Mrs./Mr. was normal when I was a child.
But now when I run into those adults, ((they)) freak when they hear me saying, "Hi Mrs. B!"
Then they beg me to say, "Josie" instead.
Which freaks ((me)) out.
:o)
IsleDance - haha - I bet - it sort becomes a name. I actually can't remember the first name of my daughter's Kindergartner teacher - since we refer to her as Mrs G... and that is also how she signs all information to us.
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